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I don't really get what's so bad about Steam. It provides a streamlined interface to all my games, I can buy and install new games for cheap and rather quickly, It has a built in web browser so I don't have to alt+tab, and unless I really want to look at something I don't even remember it's running half the time, there's no pop-ups aside from system startup and only then where Steam is having a sale, and that's only to let me know about the sale.It also has a built-in friends list that lets me see what my friends are playing so I can pick up those games and play them with them, and even chat with them inside the game either through the text chat system, or the voice chat.

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Kayle, you just listed pretty much everything I don't want to have happening while I'm playing a game. All that crap is still going on in the background. When I'm playing Oblivion, I don't want to be bugged by IM requests or start chat sessions with people. I don't want advertising to be thrown in my face regardless of how awesome the deal might be. For me, Steam is just another resource wasting pile of crap. Plus I've read more than enough horror stories about what Valve does to people they think are cheating, circumventing DRM, or tried to screw them on payments - even when it was the bank's fault the payment got botched. I have no desire to have something I purchased be denied to me because some asshole 3rd party WHO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME says I'm a thief.I am totally of the opinion that if anything is going to kill PC gaming, it's things like Steam. Once retail awareness in physical stores dries up, the market is dead, and you may as well buy a PS3.

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Well...I think you may be being a bit to harsh on steam, but I do agree that it should not be getting involved with single player games that don't have any online features, like TES or Fallout.

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To Steam or not To Steam should be the user's choice. :)If I buy the DVD and I have the DVD I expect (wish I could say demand) that I can dump it in the drive and start playing. If I feel like I need an update or a mod, I go online and download that. Like what Oblivion is right now. Not more, not less.I don't have nothing against Steam if it was treated by the industry as just another platform for selling the game. Fine. If you like it, and there is a lot to like if you're of the "right stuff" for it (Arthmoor and me are probably not), go ahead. But don't let Steam (or whatever service) abuse their reach and strangle the DVD owners into becoming a Steam "slave" by requiring online accounts, online key registrations, online this, online that, awkward de-installation routines to re-sell your game and so on and so on.... I don't want that stuff imposed on me. I paid $80 for the DVD version when I could have bought if off Steam at half the price or less. When I want any Steam "value-added" features, I'll get them myself at a time of my choice. Until then I have the DVD because that is all I want and need.If Beth or any company decides to stab the DVD owners in the back by still putting them on a Steam leash, well there is not much that we can do about it. But then be so honest and just abolish the DVD altogether. If there is no choice we need not pretend there is....

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Well, I still don't really understand it, but okay. I like being able to pick out a game, install and run it without having to leave the house, DVD or not, I still own a copy of the game accessible from anywhere as long as I have my Steam login. Don't have to lug the computer or disk with me if I go on vacation, but I guess what I see as convenience, some people might see as an inconvenience.As for the resources issue, that's not really a valid point, my MUDs use up more resources then Steam even when I have a game running.

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It's a valid point to me. I don't want 3rd party malware sitting around observing my gaming sessions - and Steam does exactly that. GFWL never did any such thing and could even be uninstalled from the system if I decided I didn't like having it on the computer for some reason. Fallout 3 continued to operate as though nothing was wrong. Steam-locked games can't do that. They'll refuse to run at all. IMO, that makes Vale the thief, not me.

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What's the scam, I wonder.I'm more less of Tommy's opinion on the subject, although personally Steam doesn't really matter much to me. I have the connection to handle it, and I usually buy retail DVD anyway so it's not much of an issue.All of that said, you're picking some strange hills to die on here, Samson. To review:- IM/chat service: So just don't ever turn it on. Nobody's forcing you one way or the other. Hell, even if you do turn it on, you can have it set, as I do, to keep you logged out by default. No spam at all. On the other hand, for those of us who like such things for setting up multiplayer games, the way Steam does things is pretty useful. Don't turn it on, you'll never see messages, just not an issue.- Advertising: Can be turned off, as I recall. Either way, it happens once every time you start up Steam, and then doesn't happen again. Again, this just isn't an issue.- I'd be a lot more willing to believe you cared about the cheating thing if you played multiplayer anything, which you don't, so.- Me, I don't ever have a problem with Steam taking my credit card. Or actually I did once because their servers went down, but it got sorted out easily enough. Certainly it's less of an annoyance than Bethesda's DLC store was, and it's undoubtedly less of a pain in the ass than GFWL or even what Bioware did for Dragon Age DLC. In any event, you buy retail DVDs, so this would never ever come up for you. You put in your key code, and you're done forever.And you know, funny thing about Steam being the death of PC gaming. I've probably bought more games post-Christmas/in 2011 than I did in all of 2009-2010 combined, maybe even longer. Everything I've seen suggests the same - you give gamers access to really good games for cheap, and they will buy more games. I've seen old ass games on Steam, I've seen indie games on Steam, I've seen more games on Steam than any brick and mortar store I've ever been in ever had, even back when such stores actually stocked PC games. And since the brick and mortar stores don't seem to care about PC gamers, and Steam DOES care about PC gamers, well.All of which is to say that there are legitimate arguments to be made against Steam, but you're not making them.

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Legit arguments in whose opinion? So because I don't like the idea in any way shape or form and have decided I don't want it, my opinion means shit despite every claim I've made being 100% verifiable with 5 minutes of Google effort?The message I take away from companies to jam shit like this down your throat without bothering to consider if you want it is that they don't want your business. Fine. They won't get it then. I've already gone on record as saying that I passed on both F:NV and Civ 5 for the sole reason that they both had Steam. I might well have put up with a lot of the secondary Obsidian bugs in F:NV and probably put up with whatever bugs there are in Civ 5, but not when combined with bullshit 3rd party malware/DRM systems piled on top of all that.So bottom line, the message I see time and time again from Steam users is that consumer choice isn't a valid reason. Well screw that attitude. I may as well just buy the damn PS3 and never have to put up with it again, and throw the PC out the window and let the ants and wasps have it for a nest.Yes. I buy retail DVDs. I do so with the full expectation that I should never be required to install a completely unrelated program for the sole purpose of allowing Big Brother to monitor my gaming habits. Steam's "offline" mode is a verified joke. You can never truly disengage it. I don't want that shit. So stop trying to force me to want it.You're right that I don't usually bother with multi-player stuff. Steam is probably a godsend for MMO addicts and wargamers. I am neither of those. I play sandbox style games because I like them. There is no legitimate reason for a sandbox style game to come with all this extra BS that's intended for use in multi-player environments. There are other far less intrusive DRM methods if the DRM is what they're after. GFWL being one of them.All of that stuff you're offering up about obscure titles, bargains, and the like USED to be things actual functioning stores who carried PC games specialized in. Used to be I could go to CompUSA, Fry's Best Buy, Circuit City, Good Guys, EB Games, or any number of other smaller PC related stores and not only find the latest titles but have loads of bargain bins to sift through to turn up gems. Most of the bargain stuff sold for $5 or less.Now, you walk into those who survived the console explosion (Best Buy and Fry's) and you can't find the bargain bins, but at least they still carry newer stuff. Walk into a Gamestop, and they flat out insult PC gamers by shoving the one single rack that even has any into a dark corner in the back of the store. Usually old stuff nobody liked to begin with, and always in boxes that look like they've been in the warehouse since 1974. A few of them are even run by snot nosed assholes who quit paying attention to you if you ask for any sort of info on a PC title.One of Steam's biggest selling points used to be that digital distribution would cut the cost of games. That's been proven a total lie. I know dozens of people who have Steam, and hate it because everything is ALWAYS more expensive than when they go to Fry's and find the same titles on the shelves. I've seen things on the shelves that are $10 and $15 cheaper than what they have listed in their Steam folders, but they're so God damned LAZY they won't get out of the chair and save the money by buying retail - yet have the audacity to bitch about the cost. As long as Steam perceives people are that lazy, they'll continue to openly rip people off.You might think I was full of crap about the credit card thing, but two of my buddies had their entire accounts with Steam permanently locked out. one of them because the bank's computer system rejected a transaction in error. The other because He typoe'd the expiration date on the card, the charge went through anyway, and then Steam bounced it claiming fraud. I could see blocking the purchase this actually happened for, but their blanket policy of kicking you completely off the service for one error has cost both of these guys hundreds of dollars in both downloaded and retail purchases because the Steam account is blacklisted.Needless to say, I directed them both to Demonoid and told them to find cracks for the games they had retail copies of. TOTALLY justified IMO, Valve should get sued, and I keep telling these guys to do it, but they're both afraid they'll lose because Valve is too big an entity to fight. They've settled for getting the banks to issue chargebacks to recover the stolen money - which the banks were surprisingly willing to help with since THEY viewed what Valve had done as fraud.So. What "legitimate" reasons am I missing? Stuff I'd only find out about after foolishly agreeing to let Valve assume property rights over my purchases?

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They are 3 people against the tide of bug report after bug report. They were right about FO3' date=' and for the most part right about Oblivion, and Dwip even said one quest was broken enough it wouldn't let him finish it his way. Besides, Steam does not set foot on this PC unless Skyrim forces the issue.[/quote']Well, yes, but they are three people I "know" as opposed to the tide of bug reports from folks who don't have any real credence to me. :shrug:Yes, but he didn't say it wouldn't let him finish it, just that it wouldn't let him do it the way he'd initially wanted to.Well, yes, I can understand that stance entirely, but in my case, I already have another game or two that installed Steam on me anyway. :shrug:
Kayle' date=' you just listed pretty much everything I don't want to have happening while I'm playing a game. All that crap is still going on in the background. When I'm playing Oblivion, I don't want to be bugged by IM requests or start chat sessions with people. I don't want advertising to be thrown in my face regardless of how awesome the deal might be. For me, Steam is just another resource wasting pile of crap. Plus I've read more than enough horror stories about what Valve does to people they think are cheating, circumventing DRM, or tried to screw them on payments - even when it was the bank's fault the payment got botched. I have no desire to have something I purchased be denied to me because some asshole 3rd party WHO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME says I'm a thief.I am totally of the opinion that if anything is going to kill PC gaming, it's things like Steam. Once retail awareness in physical stores dries up, the market is dead, and you may as well buy a PS3.[/quote']I'm of the understanding that almost all of that can be turned off/disabled. I know none of it shows up when I play either of the other games I've got that use Steam. :shrug:As for being mistakenly thought a thief and such, I do fully agree. Overall, I'm not in favor of Steam (or anything like it) for similar reasons with some variance, but I'm not so opposed to it that I can't envision running any game that requires it just because it requires it. :shrug:
To Steam or not To Steam should be the user's choice. :)If I buy the DVD and I have the DVD I expect (wish I could say demand) that I can dump it in the drive and start playing. If I feel like I need an update or a mod' date=' I go online and download that. Like what Oblivion is right now. Not more, not less.I don't have nothing against Steam if it was treated by the industry as just another platform for selling the game. Fine. If you like it, and there is a lot to like if you're of the "right stuff" for it (Arthmoor and me are probably not), go ahead. But don't let Steam (or whatever service) abuse their reach and strangle the DVD owners into becoming a Steam "slave" by requiring online accounts, online key registrations, online this, online that, awkward de-installation routines to re-sell your game and so on and so on.... I don't want that stuff imposed on me. I paid $80 for the DVD version when I could have bought if off Steam at half the price or less. When I want any Steam "value-added" features, I'll get them myself at a time of my choice. Until then I have the DVD because that is all I want and need.If Beth or any company decides to stab the DVD owners in the back by still putting them on a Steam leash, well there is not much that we can do about it. But then be so honest and just abolish the DVD altogether. If there is no choice we need not pretend there is....[/quote']Actually, this sounds closer to my stance on Steam than Samson's. For me it's far more about not being forced to take upgrades whether I want them or not and not being required to deal with online aspects in general for a single player game than it is about what potential pitfalls might be there as demonstrated by Vavle in the past. But there sure seem to be a lot of folks who aren't having these sorts of problems with Steam. On the other hand, given my bandwidth issues through my satellite provider, I'm also not a big fan of games that I have to download to install, nor of auto-upgrades/patching, but that's not so much about Steam itself either as it is about bandwidth issues. :shrug:[...]Wow, a few more posts.. I do agree with Samson that his opinion counts even if he's not arguing reasons that Dwip or Kayle agree with, certainly for his own choices about buying games that require Steam. But otherwise, I'm as much with Dwip on this as I am with Tommy. I just haven't found the big problems with Steam yet, I guess. On the other hand (I seem to be using that term a lot lately), the couple of games I do have that use it have been single player games and haven't shown me any actual interaction with Steam after the initial install (which was via DVD, incidentally). Unlike Dwip & Kayle, I haven't found myself enthralled by the opportunity to buy games because they're cheaper through Steam, but I also haven't really bothered looking through the Steam catalog since my first experience with Steam over a year ago, and I can't really afford extra games right now at any price anyway. :shrug:

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I find it rather telling that Steam supporters only ever seem to counter perfectly legitimate arguments with "well I like it". That's not even a useful response to legitimate concerns. That you like it means nothing to me if I don't want it and am basing that on actual reasoned arguments backed by evidence.The mere fact that this subject draws flamewars and brings down banhammers on gaming forums should be a clear sign that it's NOT some kind of universal good thing. Bethesda's moderators are threatening to ban anyone who discusses the issue again. Just like when it got raised for F:NV and people showed up to protest the fact that it was being forced down everyone's throats. The signs are beginning to point once again to the conclusion that they'll make the same stupid mistake again, costing themselves sales from the people who have openly said they won't buy it because of Steam.Granted, some of those people will buy it on consoles instead. Which may well be what the ultimate goal is - driving PC gaming so far underground it becomes more appealing to play on consoles. In that respect, Bethesda plays with fire since they actively support modding and that can only be done on PC. But this unholy alliance with Valve has cost the F:NV community several modders who walked away because of Steam.That's why when the subject comes up, I stick my 2 cents in about Steam being crap, and wanting to see them use GFWL instead. GFWL is a no hassles answer to the problem. And I say this as a staunch anti-Microsoft person. I would willingly embrace Microsoft's GFWL than have to put up with Steam any day. I've even seen plenty of evidence out there to support the fact that Microsoft is actively improving the system in response to those who whined about getting DLC for Fallout 3 through it. That should be a good thing, right?I've never once seen anyone complain about GFWL using up background resources or throwing pop-up ads in your face or forcing you to reconnect once every couple of weeks to check for game updates or anything of the sort. Why wouldn't people want the demonstrably less intrusive system? Does this REALLY all come down to gamers being THAT lazy that they won't buy retail?

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Ha! My overuse of on the other hand has infected Conner! I win!To respond to Samson:

Legit arguments in whose opinion? So because I don't like the idea in any way shape or form and have decided I don't want it' date=' my opinion means shit despite every claim I've made being 100% verifiable with 5 minutes of Google effort?[/quote']To clarify, I mostly mean the stuff about community/ads/death of gaming. I don't think you really understand what the reality of those is actually like, and so no, they're not really good reasons to chuck the whole service out the window. The fraud thing, I don't know. I've never run into it, I've never seen anybody who has, and the only people I have were unwashed internet trolls on messageboards. So, you know. Legitimate if true, but not high on the scale in my experience.I mean, the DRM thing is a pretty legitimate big deal, and if people aren't going to buy games because of being tied to Steam, that's fair enough. It's not a big enough deal to me to stop me from getting stuff I want (obviously), but if that's the stand you want to take, that's fine. What I object to is then going on to make bogus claims about features you haven't experienced and can't speak to.
The message I take away from companies to jam shit like this down your throat without bothering to consider if you want it is that they don't want your business. Fine. They won't get it then. I've already gone on record as saying that I passed on both F:NV and Civ 5 for the sole reason that they both had Steam. I might well have put up with a lot of the secondary Obsidian bugs in F:NV and probably put up with whatever bugs there are in Civ 5' date=' but not when combined with bullshit 3rd party malware/DRM systems piled on top of all that. [/quote']Opinions differ. Way I figure it, There haven't been a whole lot of releases tied to Steam that I know of, so I figure companies are floating it out there to see if it'll stick. Obviously, opinions on how good this is differ, and hey, whatever. For my money, I figure they're going to do something, so I'd rather it was something that didn't suck, like Steam, as opposed to something involving buggy CD checks and rootkits. Which I'm pretty sure both F:NV and Civ5 lack. There's not really a lot of point in that.I'm also completely puzzled as to why you'd want to put up with the bullshit it seems console owners have to put up for any reason whatsoever, but hey.
Yes. I buy retail DVDs. I do so with the full expectation that I should never be required to install a completely unrelated program for the sole purpose of allowing Big Brother to monitor my gaming habits. Steam's "offline" mode is a verified joke. You can never truly disengage it. I don't want that shit. So stop trying to force me to want it.
As I say' date=' that's a fair enough issue to have. I don't really understand why offline mode would be much of an issue for you given your connection, but.
You're right that I don't usually bother with multi-player stuff. Steam is probably a godsend for MMO addicts and wargamers. I am neither of those. I play sandbox style games because I like them. There is no legitimate reason for a sandbox style game to come with all this extra BS that's intended for use in multi-player environments. There are other far less intrusive DRM methods if the DRM is what they're after. GFWL being one of them.
GFWL? Seriously? That thing is ten times as worthless and crash happy than Steam ever was. I mean' date=' I don't really disagree with your point, but again, the multiplayer stuff isn't really doing anything. It's just part of the program. Do you go in and uninstall every Windows component you'd never use too?And I dunno. For all the impact it actually has on my life, Steam is a lot less annoying to me than CD checks. I don't really care about either one entirely, but it's not a big deal to me. You, well, not so much.
All of that stuff you're offering up about obscure titles' date=' bargains, and the like USED to be things actual functioning stores who carried PC games specialized in. Used to be I could go to CompUSA, Fry's Best Buy, Circuit City, Good Guys, EB Games, or any number of other smaller PC related stores and not only find the latest titles but have loads of bargain bins to sift through to turn up gems. Most of the bargain stuff sold for $5 or less. Now, you walk into those who survived the console explosion (Best Buy and Fry's) and you can't find the bargain bins, but at least they still carry newer stuff. Walk into a Gamestop, and they flat out insult PC gamers by shoving the one single rack that even has any into a dark corner in the back of the store. Usually old stuff nobody liked to begin with, and always in boxes that look like they've been in the warehouse since 1974. A few of them are even run by snot nosed assholes who quit paying attention to you if you ask for any sort of info on a PC title.[/quote']I'm glad you live in a major metropolis and have access to that sort of store. Out here? We have a Gamestop and whatever you can find at Walmart, which is basically nothing. With the exception of the odd preorder, most of my games come from either Steam or Amazon because that's the only place I have to get them.What's more, yeah, I miss those days too, and I miss them a lot, but you know what? Those days are over. We're just never going to see that happen again, so what's the best deal running for us? Right now it happens to be Steam or Amazon. Maybe Impulse if Impulse was actually worth a damn.
One of Steam's biggest selling points used to be that digital distribution would cut the cost of games. That's been proven a total lie. I know dozens of people who have Steam' date=' and hate it because everything is ALWAYS more expensive than when they go to Fry's and find the same titles on the shelves. I've seen things on the shelves that are $10 and $15 cheaper than what they have listed in their Steam folders, but they're so God damned LAZY they won't get out of the chair and save the money by buying retail - yet have the audacity to bitch about the cost. As long as Steam perceives people are that lazy, they'll continue to openly rip people off.[/quote']Again, I'm glad you live in a place where you can actually still go to the store. Apparently it works out for you. I don't have that luxury. Furthermore, if you give it a bit and wait for the sales on Steam, and there are ALWAYS sales on Steam, you can get pretty great prices. I pulled the trigger on a lot of stuff simply because I saw I could get a couple of games for $10 or $15 or even $5. Even without the sales, Steam is pretty much always on par with what I can find for retail boxes online.And, well, you and I should both know by now that consumers were never going to get any kind of real discounts out of digital distribution. As if the corporate types were ever going to go for that. Even so, Steam's about as good as it gets in that regard.
You might think I was full of crap about the credit card thing' date=' but two of my buddies had their entire accounts with Steam permanently locked out. one of them because the bank's computer system rejected a transaction in error. The other because He typoe'd the expiration date on the card, the charge went through anyway, and then Steam bounced it claiming fraud. I could see blocking the purchase this actually happened for, but their blanket policy of kicking you completely off the service for one error has cost both of these guys hundreds of dollars in both downloaded and retail purchases because the Steam account is blacklisted.[/quote']Again, not something I've ever seen personally. I'd be interested to know how the interactions went with customer service. Again, hey, you don't want to do the Steam DRM thing, that's fine. Some of us aren't having problems.

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Ha! My overuse of on the other hand has infected Conner! I win!
Hmm' date=' what do you win? And how do you know it's infection from your usage rather than some sort of holdover from having watched Fiddler on the Roof too many times? Or maybe I'm just trying to be four-armed through forewarning or some such? ;)
Do you go in and uninstall every Windows component you'd never use too?
You know' date=' oddly enough, I used to do that as soon as I finished installing Windows on any computer I'd be using. These days I don't really bother anymore, but I do still go into the services and disable any that I know I don't really ever want running. :shrug:
I'm glad you live in a major metropolis and have access to that sort of store. Out here? We have a Gamestop and whatever you can find at Walmart' date=' which is basically nothing. With the exception of the odd preorder, most of my games come from either Steam or Amazon because that's the only place I have to get them.What's more, yeah, I miss those days too, and I miss them a lot, but you know what? Those days are over. We're just never going to see that happen again, so what's the best deal running for us? Right now it happens to be Steam or Amazon. Maybe Impulse if Impulse was actually worth a damn.[/quote']Yeah, unfortunately where I live is about the same. We've got a GameStop and a couple of WalMart stores nearby (well, within 25 miles anyway), but if neither of them has a particular game I'm looking for, the internet is my only recourse short of driving 70 miles each way to see what I can find in the stores in Dallas, but if I'm going to spend that much on gas, I can just as easily (if not nearly as quickly) find it online and have it shipped to me instead, or possibly even download it directly, but I really prefer a tangible form of what I buy, so direct downloads aren't my favorite solution.
Again' date=' I'm glad you live in a place where you can actually still go to the store. Apparently it works out for you. I don't have that luxury. Furthermore, if you give it a bit and wait for the sales on Steam, and there are ALWAYS sales on Steam, you can get pretty great prices. I pulled the trigger on a lot of stuff simply because I saw I could get a couple of games for $10 or $15 or even $5. Even without the sales, Steam is pretty much always on par with what I can find for retail boxes online.[/quote']Maybe I really should check to see what Steam's catalog looks like these days, it has been a really long time since I last looked. On the other hand, right now I'd be hard pressed to justify spending $5 on a new game with so little income and so many real bills to cover :shrug: ...maybe it's better to remain ignorant for awhile yet.Samson, for me, the bottom line is that: I don't care for the potential problems that Steam presents. I can't afford to utilize auto-updates and such that it provides as it's best/main selling points. I can't afford new games often (which I would really far prefer to buy on DVD rather than as a download anyway) and, naturally, I'm not a fan of DRM type issues. So I really have to hesitate on any new game that's tied into it. Otherwise, I can't honestly say that it's so evil I will absolutely refuse a game solely because it's tied to Steam though. On the other hand, if you choose to do so, who am I to even try to dissuade you from what is, in my opinion, a very valid personal position? :shrug:

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Ok. I need to just say this as plainly as I can, apologies in advance for the bluntness and possible hostility, but I'm sick to death of dancing around this in more delicate ways.

What I object to is then going on to make bogus claims about features you haven't experienced and can't speak to.
Ah' date=' the old "it doesn't happen to me so he MUST be lying" argument. Thanks. I did mention I've witnessed these things happen, right? Or am I not allowed to take a stand against things I see as wrong because they haven't yet happened to me? Murder must be ok then because I'm still alive, right? I haven't experienced that personally either. Last I checked this country takes a great many stands on a great many things even if they didn't happen to us. I also apparently can't speak to how wrong it is to have your house broken into and your life ruined by it because it hasn't happened to me personally yet, right?
For my money, I figure they're going to do something, so I'd rather it was something that didn't suck, like Steam, as opposed to something involving buggy CD checks and rootkits. Which I'm pretty sure both F:NV and Civ5 lack. There's not really a lot of point in that.
I'm all for something that doesn't suck as well. From where I see things, Steam is not that thing. GFWL is closer to that thing. The one-time authentication used by Gothic 4, Dragon Age, Two Worlds 1, and numerous others is something I'd consider about as close to the ideal as possible without using a simple disc check instead. I'm sorry you're among those too lazy to actually swap a disc though and you feel that somehow gives you and many others the right to determine how I play my games.
I'm also completely puzzled as to why you'd want to put up with the bullshit it seems console owners have to put up for any reason whatsoever, but hey.
Hello? Wake up dude, look around you. You're ALREADY putting up with it. Drop the pretense and go get the damn thing already.
As I say, that's a fair enough issue to have. I don't really understand why offline mode would be much of an issue for you given your connection, but.
Right, because I have monster bandwidth capable of downloading multi-gigabyte games on a whim. I see. Oh wait, no, I don't. You talk about embracing the future. Think for a second will you? That's the future you're advocating I embrace. One which would necessitate me getting a fiber optic connection in order to make that reality not suck the donkey balls it would suck on a 3Mbit DSL line. It's already difficult enough to download several hundred megabytes for mods. I don't have the capacity to withstand downloading 12GB to play a game that should have been sold at retail.
GFWL? Seriously? That thing is ten times as worthless and crash happy than Steam ever was.
Except for how it's not. It has no intrusive components, doesn't run while the game is running, and didn't require me to register an account and maintain it in order to play Fallout 3 and every last one of the DLCs that went with it.
Do you go in and uninstall every Windows component you'd never use too?
The ones that interfere with being able to play games I do. The ones that run in the background needlessly consuming resources I will actively seek out and shut down in the services menu. GFWL came out when someone suggested it might help with stutter, not that I had any, but I tried it and removing it didn't remove my ability to run the game. Try that with your precious Steam God.
I'm glad you live in a major metropolis and have access to that sort of store. Out here? We have a Gamestop and whatever you can find at Walmart, which is basically nothing. With the exception of the odd preorder, most of my games come from either Steam or Amazon because that's the only place I have to get them.
Please. The East Coast of the United States is not Bangladesh. You have access to more than you likely realize, given you have several massive and sprawling metropolises that dwarf anything we have out here.
Again, I'm glad you live in a place where you can actually still go to the store.
And so do you, for God sake.
Again, not something I've ever seen personally.
Which does not change the fact that it happened, nor diminish it in any way as a legitimate reason to despise the service without having used it myself. I'd prefer not to take that risk.
I'd be interested to know how the interactions went with customer service.
It went something like this:Valve: What can we help you with today?Buddies: You terminated my steam account, I'd like to know why.Valve: Oh, I see. Well, you're thieves who tried to defraud us by pulling bank card scams.Buddies: WTF? No way.Valve: Yes way, now please go away and never return. And thanks for all your money.Paraphrased or something since I didn't listen in on the conversation, but that's basically how it was described. They were both told never to attempt to use the service again, and both told they weren't getting refunds on the previous purchases that went through just fine.
Again, hey, you don't want to do the Steam DRM thing, that's fine. Some of us aren't having problems.
I should clarify then that it's not the DRM that I'm so vehemently opposed to. Steamworks (the DRM component) acts more or less like any other one-time authentication check. If that's all that ever happened I wouldn't' care. However, that's not all that ever happens and you know this. It's all the other Big Brother aspects to the client and the forced advertising components I want nothing to do with. You know, the stuff that's doing all of those nasty rootkit things you say you hate?Seriously, if this is what we will have to put up with to be PC gamers, you can have my PC and I'll go get a PS3.

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I'd recommend an Xbox 360 over the PS3, larger game selection, with the new slim models, quieter, and no known hardware failures causing RROD, not to mention I've seen plenty of reports of high quality games that run fine on the 360 causing major issues for the PS3. FFXIII comes to mind. I remember reading something online at one point shortly after it's release of several PS3's overheating and one catching fire from playing it. Never seen anything like that for the 360 version. =/As for the whole, you can go to the store aspect. Sure. I can. If I want to drive 4 hours to Pittsburgh. I live in the mountains. I have a gamestop, a wal-mart, a k-mart, and a lowes. Soon we'll have a home depot, but regardless. As you've said, GameStop has one shelf, and it's normally full of old games no one liked to begin with. Wal-mart's is actually dominated by MMOs, the only Non-MMO my local walmart has is StarCraft II, the rest of the shelf is dominated by WoW and it's expansions, Aion, Guild Wars, etc. K-Mart.. K-mart has no good games, they didn't even have WoW the last time I was in there. So yeah, I can go to a store. But unless I want some obscure title no ones ever heard of, or an MMO. Steam or Amazon are where I have to get my games. And thanks to Steam, I got Portal for $1 not long ago. I'm told, at one point they gave it away for free. So, yeah, there are all kinds of metropolises around here. Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, NYC, DC, but lets look at travel time to get to any of them.Depending on traffic and weather:Pittsburgh - 2-4 HoursHarrisburg - 4-6 hoursD.C. - 6-8 hoursNYC - 8-10 hoursDo you really think I'm going to waste that much fuel and time just go to browse a store that MIGHT have my game, when Amazon, or Steam has it? Right after Christmas Steam was selling entire packages of games from different developers for cheap as hell, You know what I got? Every LucasArts game released for $19.99, You know how much I'd have paid at one of your precious stores? $150+ Which one's the better deal? So I don't have any disks for them, Okay. I'm fine with that. One less thing I have to carry around, and one less thing cluttering up my desk and house.I'm not saying your opinions mean shit, I'm saying I think you're basing your opinions on the opinions and experiences of someone else without ever having tried the product you're so vehemently against and forming your OWN opinion, based on your OWN experiences. My bank screwed up a transaction, I contacted Steam, got the whole thing sorted out just fine, my account isn't blacklisted, I'm still allowed to log in, I'm still allowed to access my games. If the two people you're referring to have tempers like yours.. Well, those couldn't have been pleasant conversations for the customer service rep at Steam.[Edit to add:] Btw, I posted this from inside Steam, while playing Oblivion.

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Right, so that's two people who think I have to personally be robbed to have an opinion on robbery, or get murdered to have an opinion on murder, or have to get screwed by Steam to legitimately be able to hate the entire concept of it. Ok. Apparently things have changed so much in this country that it's wrong to have an opinion formed based on seeing something in action and deciding you don't want that for yourself. Got it. I'll just shut up about it, since I apparently can't have an opinion about it at all until I willingly submit myself to it first.BTW, Kayle, I wasn't talking about where you are. I'm pretty sure Dwip isn't 8 hours from a major city. Or an hour or so away from one like Conner.I think I also made it clear that the two guys who got screwed over by Steam and their anti-fraud people got blacklisted before they ever called to find out why. By that point in time, they're out hundreds of dollars. Whether or not it's pleasant for the Steam people would have been the least of my concerns if that had happened to me. I wouldn't have stopped with filing fraud complaints against Steam with my bank. I'd have turned them over to the attorney general's office at the very least, and filed suit against them in court if I couldn't get my money back through issuing chargebacks.

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I'd recommend an Xbox 360 over the PS3' date=' larger game selection, with the new slim models, quieter, and no known hardware failures causing RROD, not to mention I've seen plenty of reports of high quality games that run fine on the 360 causing major issues for the PS3. FFXIII comes to mind. I remember reading something online at one point shortly after it's release of several PS3's overheating and one catching fire from playing it. Never seen anything like that for the 360 version. [/quote']Since this topic is called random stuff I'll take that up.Firstly, PS3 has a slim model and has had a slim model for quite a while now.As for Xbox's not having hardware failures, thats utter crap. You're far more likely to get the three red rings of death on the 360 than you are getting the yellow light of death on the PS3. As for FFXIII, I can't really comment as I haven't played it and have no desire to.And anyway, both consoles cost the same now. In terms of gaming performance, even though the PS3 is far more powerful, because of the internal design nature of 360's, both come roughly about equal (though some games, such as Uncharted 2, have begun to properly make use of the extra power of the PS3). However PS3 has a Blue-Ray disk drive, making it better for home media use and allowing it to run games that are far larger than Xbox 360 can (case in point, MGS4). Of course, if you're absolutely adsorbed with being able to play some of the 360 exclusives and PS3 exclusives don't interest you, then get a 360, but otherwise, I don't see why you'd want to bother with a 360.Otherwise, I'm going to keep out of the Steam debate, because I don't really know anything much about it.

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That article linked is in reference to the original model of Xbox 360, my claim of no known hardware failures causing RROD was in referene to the new 360 Slim, which is whisper quiet, and so far, no RROD's have been reported for it.Regardless of the power inside the PS3, Sony shot themselves in the foot by removing backwards compatibility with PS2 and PS1 games. Xbox 360 has a large library of original Xbox games that run on it, while Sony has removed this support both hardware wise, and software wise. This is a major issue for me. I've got about 80 PS2 games that I still enjoy playing, and so even if I were to spend the money on a PS3, I'd still have to keep my PS2 as well, just to be able to play my PS2 and PS1 games.While the PS3 is a blue-ray player, there are only a handful of games that I can't get for my 360 that are on PS3, and of those only 3 really hold any interest for me. So it was a better buy for me to get the 360 with it's large collection of titles, and exclusive titles, then get the PS3 for 3 games, and the ability to play Blu-ray. Which my PC can handle just fine. Aside from that, I've had Netflix for the 360 since I bought my 360, where PS3 only recently gained Netflix, and even that, last I checked required a disk to work, the 360's just works off the console itself. Regardless of the failure rate of the original Xbox 360, I'd still rather have the 360, and I'd still recommend the 360 over the PS3 any day.Regardless of how much you can fit on a single blu-ray disk, Large games can still be played on the 360. Returning to the FFXIII example, for Xbox 360, it's a 3 DVD set for the game, and the PS3 is a single Blu-Ray. Some would see this as a fault, I however, don't mind this at all. Several RPGs for the PS2 were multiple discs. Pretty much every Final Fantasy Title was at least 3. So I see this as nothing new. MGS4 would have run perfectly fine on the 360 if split onto multiple discs like FFXIII. [Edit to add:] Still inside Steam, but I've switched to NWN2 now.

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The article was also looking at the older models of the PS3, so the case is the same for both consoles :shrug:.I'll agree with you that backwards compatibility is a bit of the bitch with the PS3. However, some PS2 games do work; just not all of them (the only PS2 game I ever still play is Starwars Battlefront, which works just fine). A lot of PS1 games can be bought over PSN, though thats hardly a compensation.As for game preference, well, thats just a matter of preference, what one person likes is different to what another likes (however, MGS4 would need to be on six disks for 360, in fact, it barely fits on to a blue ray disk in the first place). Personally I don't care much for the 360 exclusives, but then again, I don't play to many PS3 exclusives either.

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[Edit to add:] Still inside Steam' date=' but I've switched to NWN2 now.[/quote']Is this supposed to be considered advantageous in some way? An argument to kill all arguments about Steam? Personally I see that as nothing more than needless code bloat and yet another feature I don't need or want.

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@Conner - It's the sort of thing where I overuse that particular phrase a whole hell of a lot, so I like to blame me. Gives me feelings of power, POWER! buahahahahaha!....sorry.@Samson - Kayle and I are pretty much in accord here, but:

I'm all for something that doesn't suck as well. From where I see things' date=' Steam is not that thing. GFWL is closer to that thing. The one-time authentication used by Gothic 4, Dragon Age, Two Worlds 1, and numerous others is something I'd consider about as close to the ideal as possible without using a simple disc check instead. I'm sorry you're among those too lazy to actually swap a disc though and you feel that somehow gives you and many others the right to determine how I play my games.[/quote']I hope you're aware that Dragon Age at the very least phones home just as much as Steam does, at least once every time you start it up. And if it doesn't like what it hears, your DLC ain't gonna work. I don't know about the others, since I never played them.What part of "I don't mind swapping disks" did you not hear me just say? That said, if I don't have to do that, that's nice too.As far as GFWL goes, you'll forgive me if I laugh, since, well, this is the first I've heard you be anything but vehemently derogatory to it, and from what I've seen, it's just as bad as it ever was. When they stop running out of CD keys for their virtual games, you let me know.Too, all of that said, you keep railing about console games and the death of PC gaming, yet you're running straight at a buggy, shittily done version of Xbox Live over something that was constructed by and for PC users? I just don't get that at all.
Hello? Wake up dude' date=' look around you. You're ALREADY putting up with it. Drop the pretense and go get the damn thing already.[/quote']Am I? I mean, Kayle can probably speak better to this since I haven't owned my own console since the N64, but you know, by and large I'm not dealing with fucked up controls, fucked up interfaces, fucked up resolutions, buying a bunch of crap to make my games work, seemingly constant hardware failures, and the hand of Big Brother that seems to be just about as omnipresent as Steam if not even more so. Oh, and no mods. Hell, a lot of the stuff I like to play isn't even available on console.So, no.
Except for how it's not. It has no intrusive components' date=' doesn't run while the game is running, and didn't require me to register an account and maintain it in order to play Fallout 3 and every last one of the DLCs that went with it.[/quote']It also doesn't actually work, let alone work as well as Steam does. Or has your Fallout 3 DLC experience magically gotten better after the fact? Because, well, I don't know. Yeah, I had to register an account on Steam. Big deal. I have to register accounts on every damn thing in the world these days, including for Dragon Age, by the by. At least my Steam account I'll actually use for games besides just the one. And you know what? I bought some Civ 5 DLC a while back. I went to the Steam store, selected what I wanted, hit the checkout button, paid actual dollars instead of bogus Microsoft point bullshit, and then it worked. Fine. With no issues.If GFWL ever hits that level, come talk to me.
Right' date=' because I have monster bandwidth capable of downloading multi-gigabyte games on a whim. I see. Oh wait, no, I don't. You talk about embracing the future. Think for a second will you? That's the future you're advocating I embrace. One which would necessitate me getting a fiber optic connection in order to make that reality not suck the donkey balls it would suck on a 3Mbit DSL line. It's already difficult enough to download several hundred megabytes for mods. I don't have the capacity to withstand downloading 12GB to play a game that should have been sold at retail.[/quote']Well, I dunno. I've got about that level of cable connection, and in fact, I downloaded, oh, about 12 gigs spread over 4 games in let us say 6 hours to be overly generous. While I web surfed and did some other stuff with my computer. Steam has really fast servers. It's not particularly onerous.And for fuck's sake, that's only if you're actually buying things through Steam. Maybe patches, but even the biggest patches don't seem to take more than about 5 minutes. In fact, as I was typing this, Steam downloaded a 35 meg Left4Dead 2 patch, and it was over so fast I didn't even notice.
The ones that interfere with being able to play games I do. The ones that run in the background needlessly consuming resources I will actively seek out and shut down in the services menu. GFWL came out when someone suggested it might help with stutter' date=' not that I had any, but I tried it and removing it didn't remove my ability to run the game. Try that with your precious Steam God.[/quote']About that.steamram.jpgI invite you to compare and contrast the amount of RAM used by GFWL and Steam. Also, nice GFWL login screen.I mean, I guess we could talk about how at one point Steam was using as many resources as Outlook is, while it was in the middle of downloading a patch, but since it doesn't do any of that while you're actually in game, I think I'll decline. Meanwhile, GFWL is using 3x that much to present me with a login screen.
Please. The East Coast of the United States is not Bangladesh. You have access to more than you likely realize' date=' given you have several massive and sprawling metropolises that dwarf anything we have out here.[/quote']Well, let's see. There's not much locally that I'm aware of. The nearest mall is about an hour's drive away, and doesn't so much as have an electronics store in it. I do have access to a Costco, which is pretty hit or miss and also an hour away. I guess I could go to Hartford, which is at least an hour's drive away, and they might have stuff maybe. I guess I could go to NYC for the price of a five hour round trip and $35 worth of train and bus tickets. I guess I could go to Boston, which is even further and costs even more.I guess if I really wanted to do the in-store experience I could ask Gamestop to order for me and wait a few days and make a couple trips down there. Alternately, I could say fuck Gamestop because they couldn't give a shit about PC gamers anyway, and do one of two things:- Buy from Amazon, which will have comparable or cheaper prices than the stores, and I'll probably get it next day because I happen to live a couple hours from a distribution center.- Buy from Steam, which will have comparable or way cheaper prices if it's a sale, and I'll have my game in, at worst, a few hours.So like I said, I'm glad you live in CA and can do that, but not all of us live in CA and can do that.
I should clarify then that it's not the DRM that I'm so vehemently opposed to. Steamworks (the DRM component) acts more or less like any other one-time authentication check. If that's all that ever happened I wouldn't' care. However' date=' that's not all that ever happens and you know this. It's all the other Big Brother aspects to the client and the forced advertising components I want nothing to do with. You know, the stuff that's doing all of those nasty rootkit things you say you hate?[/quote']So, let me get this straight.- You don't really mind the activation stuff, which is the number one biggest reason people hate Steam.- You hate the advertisement stuff. Would you like me to show you the settings screen where you can turn that shit off if you don't want it?- You don't want things phoning home, apparently unless it's made by EA Games of all the evil draconian companies and says Dragon Age on it.- You don't want it to use a bunch of resources it isn't using.I guess I'm just really missing something here. I mean, if you don't want to use Steam that's fine, I don't really care, but like I said, you're making a bunch of arguments about something you've never used that just don't hold up.

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Also, boy did I get ninja'd.You know what I was saying about all the bullshit console owners have to put up with? That whole conversation preceeding mine is pretty much what I'm talking about there. Maybe later I'll use my PC to fire up some Ultima VII from 1990.

Still inside Steam' date=' but I've switched to NWN2 now.[/quote']Man, I'm sorry. How is your system even running with that epic resource hog?...NWN2 that is. Man does that game needlessly chew on resources.

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Nice GFWL screen. Good thing I've never once seen such a thing and since it's not even installed and FO3 fires up just fine, I guess you haven't really proven your point or something. While I could pull up a shot that doesn't even have that on there, let alone a login screen I've never seen - because I've never needed to sign up for it. Lest ye forget, I got my FO3 DLCs on retail disc and didn't have to put up with any of that. Which is the entire God damn point I've been trying to make this whole time.Also, right now, there's a guy on the Skyrim forum who related his experience with having purchased F:NV ON DISC who STILL had to suffer through it deciding on a whim to download the entire game anyway. So you'll forgive me if all I have to say to that is your argument just exploded in your face on that one.Kayle seems to have made a strong case in favor of the XBox 360 Slim, so there's that. Thus far I've not wanted to go down the console road because of mods and better resolutions on the PC, along with generally better performance. I have in fact been considering getting a PS3 because of all this BS lately, and yes, it would mean I'd be exiting the modding scene. You can chalk that tragedy up to Steam and its insidious bullshit. I've had people actually plead with me over PMs to not do that because they want to see what I might come up with for Skyrim.So yes, let's go over your summary points:

You don't really mind the activation stuff, which is the number one biggest reason people hate Steam.
Yes. You read that right. I don't mind the activation stuff. Provided that's *ALL* I'm required to do. You'll once again note that I had no objection to it for Gothic 4, Two Worlds 1, Dragon Age, and I'm sure a few other things I'm forgetting right now. At least you haven't pulled the tired old line of "well would you rather have Ubisoft DRM" on me. Because no, I wouldn't. Also, if you've paid any attention to the debates on the subject at all (doesn't look like you have) most people who voice hatred for Steam are voicing it against things OTHER than the DRM.
You hate the advertisement stuff. Would you like me to show you the settings screen where you can turn that shit off if you don't want it?
Yes. I hate advertising stuff. I would have figured by now after having railed against the topic for years you would know I despise with a passion any form of advertising on the PC. Steam is not going to be exempt from this hatred. If you want to show me the screen, feel free, but I've seen it, and it DOES NOT WORK as advertised. You can call me a liar if you want, but what I witness with my own eyes on other peoples' PCs trumps your claims I can't verify.
You don't want things phoning home, apparently unless it's made by EA Games of all the evil draconian companies and says Dragon Age on it.
Then I guess it's a good thing Dragon Age doesn't really do this, because you should know, I've tested this theory and blocked it from being allowed a connection to the internet. Guess what? It loaded and ran just fine without so much as a single complaint. Until I went to see what it would do if you tried with the block in place. It simply acted like any normal app, complained it couldn't connect and left it at that.
You don't want it to use a bunch of resources it isn't using.
Your own screenshot proves otherwise. It's memory footprint is the least of my concerns. While I'd prefer even that not be there, it's the background spyware functions I don't want it performing. Yes, there are still people out there who want their gaming machines to be doing gaming, and not communicating in secret with its master.Forgive me for saying it, but you're probably beyond biased at this point because you are making exactly the same arguments all the other Steam lovers are and basically boiling it down to "your opinion is invalid because it doesn't happen to me".Again, I've never been robbed, but I sure as shit think robbery is bad. You can quit with the bogus assertion that I have to suffer something before being allowed an opinion on it.

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Nice GFWL screen. Good thing I've never once seen such a thing and since it's not even installed and FO3 fires up just fine' date=' I guess you haven't really proven your point or something. While I could pull up a shot that doesn't even have that on there, let alone a login screen I've never seen - because I've never needed to sign up for it. Lest ye forget, I got my FO3 DLCs on retail disc and didn't have to put up with any of that. Which is the entire God damn point I've been trying to make this whole time.[/quote']So speaking obliquely of FO3, when did your blog get paginated comments, anyway?Actually I thought you got Anchorage off GFWL, but I'm apparently confusing you with Shamus Young, who had a less than optimal experience with the thing. More than once.For the record, my own FO3 install is a retail GOTY disc, so I don't interact with GFWL either. You know why that is? It's because GFWL isn't the DRM system. Securom is the DRM system for FO3, while GFWL was installed pretty much as bloatware and a way to get you to buy the DLC. That's not really comparable to Steam, because Steam is the DRM system for, let us say F:NV. If GFWL was the DRM system for some game you bought, guess what, you'd need to be running GFWL and, you know, logging in.So let's at least be talking on the same page here. You can argue that Steam as DRM is bad, you can argue that GFWL is a better service than Steam, but you can't argue that GFWL is a better DRM system than Steam, because that's not what you're arguing with the evidence you're presenting.And as far as Securom goes, I'm still waiting for Steam to do something as egregious to me as the time it took me 3 hours and 5 installs to figure out that Medieval 2 Total War's Securom didn't want to play with Vista and that I needed to some bronze knife waving and goat slaughtering bullshit. Not to belabor the point, but I have 19 games installed via Steam, 10 of which came off retail discs, and I had zero problems with those installs.And yeah, I've heard several stories of Civ 5 people who bought retail and had to download the game for some reason. Dunno. Never happened to me. Like I said, the 10 things I've installed retail didn't do that. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but on the scale of egregious fuckups it's still not as bad as that Securom thing I was just talking about.
Also' date=' if you've paid any attention to the debates on the subject at all (doesn't look like you have) most people who voice hatred for Steam are voicing it against things OTHER than the DRM.[/quote']I assume you're pretty much approaching this from the F:NV/Skyrim debates, which no, I'm not really following because I followed the Civ 5 debates, which were about as I described. Having read through that particular set of vitriol previously, I'm not really invested in doing it again, since yeah, I've pretty much reached the conclusions I need to reach.
Yes. I hate advertising stuff. I would have figured by now after having railed against the topic for years you would know I despise with a passion any form of advertising on the PC. Steam is not going to be exempt from this hatred. If you want to show me the screen' date=' feel free, but I've seen it, and it DOES NOT WORK as advertised. You can call me a liar if you want, but what I witness with my own eyes on other peoples' PCs trumps your claims I can't verify.[/quote']So, I said to myself just now "Well, I guess he might be right. I've never actually tried that option, so maybe it doesn't work for some reason."The option, for those of you playing along at home, is Settings/Interface/Notify me (with Steam instant messages) about additions, etc.So I turn it off, quit Steam, log back in, and I'm staring at my games library. No advertising has in fact been presented to me whatsoever.So I turn it back on, quit Steam, log back in, and lo and behold, I get an advertising popup.Kind of what I expected, to be honest.
Then I guess it's a good thing Dragon Age doesn't really do this' date=' because you should know, I've tested this theory and blocked it from being allowed a connection to the internet. Guess what? It loaded and ran just fine without so much as a single complaint. Until I went to see what it would do if you tried with the block in place. It simply acted like any normal app, complained it couldn't connect and left it at that.[/quote']Oh, it'll run well enough, sure. But without the phone home part, no DLC for you. Which, as you say, I've seen happen with my own eyes on my own install. Which if that's not what you want, fine, but let's not pretend it's much if anything different than what Steam does.
Your own screenshot proves otherwise. It's memory footprint is the least of my concerns. While I'd prefer even that not be there' date=' it's the background spyware functions I don't want it performing. Yes, there are still people out there who want their gaming machines to be doing gaming, and not communicating in secret with its master.[/quote']Well, ok, you talked about it just now in terms that sounded like RAM/CPU footprint, of which there's essentially none. And yeah, it will send a certain amount of info back home. A bit of info on system specs (Windows does this too, of course, and for that matter your god damned blog does this to me every single day), gameplay hours logged, and achievements. Dragon Age and consoles both phone home for achievements. I'm not sure about the hours logged.You say you're not willing to put up with this, but you clearly are if it's got the right name on it, and you're threatening to jump ship to consoles, which will do as much and more to you.And of course, the footprint we're talking about here is completely negligable.So again, use Steam or don't. Totally up to you. But if you're going to talk shit about it, you can expect some pushback.

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Still inside Steam' date=' but I've switched to NWN2 now.[/quote']Man' date=' I'm sorry. How is your system even running with that epic resource hog?...NWN2 that is. Man does that game needlessly chew on resources.[/quote']Actually, with the MotB and SoZ expansions they fixed a lot of the bugs that made it such a resource hog. It still uses a lot of resources, but not nearly as many, and the game runs a lot smoother without so much of the choppiness.As for the Steam thing, Better avoid the PS3 if you have such an aversion to Steam then, because at E3 it was announced that Steam would be coming to the PS3/PSN this year to help the PS3 compare to the Xbox Live Marketplace..

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