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Creator of MO is officially working on next version of NMM

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http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12905/?

 

Arthmoor is so gonna love this :P

(No features of the new NMM are decided yet, so they may well stick to the current NMM's technique of profiling for improved non-creation engine games support)

 

Edit: here's an interesting comment by Tannin42 i fond in the comments section:

"Basically we plan to build the new mod manager very modular and extensible.
The base application will then be a very simple tool with only the necessary functions. When you need an advanced feature you add the appropriate extensions.
A moddable mod manager basically.
This way you get a smoother learning curve and the UI isn't as cluttered with features you never use.

But that's only the vision, how much of that we can realize remains to be seen."

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I don't use either program so this news elicits no emotions for me but a moddable mod manager sounds like a great direction.

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I like the idea of making the new NMM moddable as it would cater to the varying needs of people better by making it simple for those who want that and more feature rich for others.

 

We'll just have to wait a while to see how things turn out :P

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Oh God. Please don't let him take their already daft file virtualization to ridiculous new levels. :fear:

I'm afraid that it will be one of the directions in which this "application" will be developed.

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Ugh. I've yet to see one good argument for why virtualized setups are any better than just managing the Data folder directly. Probably the best we can hope for I guess is that they have brains enough to leave out the BSA unpacking part of things. Otherwise it may get to be too much of a hassle and no longer be worth trying to deal with support on Nexus.

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It's smart of them to start fresh, at the least. I've often heard builders tell me it's easier and less expensive to demolish and start new than renovate an old building. I think the same is probably true of code. I don't want NMM to end up where WB is, where only a few people have the expertise to understand the code, and it struggles to maintain any kind of support going forward.

 

I'm also optimistic about seeing our mod managers consolidate a bit. Having one actively maintained mod manager is much better than watching NMM and MO go nowhere fast.

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As a general question not related to this topic, does there exist a non-profiled version of a mod manager aside from an old version of NMM? I never bothered with that nonsense and always wondered if there was a proper alternative

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Ugh. I've yet to see one good argument for why virtualized setups are any better than just managing the Data folder directly. Probably the best we can hope for I guess is that they have brains enough to leave out the BSA unpacking part of things. Otherwise it may get to be too much of a hassle and no longer be worth trying to deal with support on Nexus.

 

True Argument:

 

 

I prefer archive-style techniques, with each mod having it's own folder. This allows me to keep track of what files I'm modifying, as well as remind myself of which files over-write which. Then I remove the overwrites once i'm happy with the outcome.

 

More Elaborate Argument:

 

ADHD is a pain in the butt, and having a system where I can easily make changes to a file structure without having to manually go back and rewrite files I accidentally overwrote, over. and over. and over again, is a life saver. The fact that you can create profiles, the fact that pressing a checkbox is 100x better than going through and cleaning files, and that I'm used to virtualized file structures in other game modding tools (ARMA 3), with a minimal performance loss makes me happy. Also, I tend to simlink the folder anyways, so doing it without a permanent file structure makes it even better.

 

Simple Argument:

 

It makes it enjoyable for me and no matter what your opinion of the matter is I'm going to keep using it. "Good" software isn't dictated by your opinion. The reality of the situation is that "Good" software is simply a matter of perspective and taste, and ultimately dictated by how many people decide to use it. And ultimately, their choice of software isn't dictated by what you fine "acceptable".

 

Once I found MO, I never went back. I simply found it more enjoyable. The same way I find Overwatch fun, or I wiill never play another racing game beside iRacing, or that Concerta is SOOOO much better than Strattera but since I no longer have health insurance I'm just gonna stick with the one I have 3 already filled prescriptions left for. 

 

But yeah, you can do things your way. Just wanted to let you know that the only /good/ argument is the one a person believes in. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as that. And if you don't want to support it, then don't. But that's how public opinion works. If you want your mods to be popular, you also have to support what is popular. 

 

That's just life in a nutshell. That's how credit cards surpassed money, that's how Apps that used to be iOS exclusive ended up on Android. And if you don't support it, then people may insult you for not supporting those installation methods. 

 

And you just have to deal with that repercussion. =/

 

[And yes I did just make an account to respond to this. Google Now (oddly) told me about this news and then i saw the post and just had to laugh.]

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As a general question not related to this topic, does there exist a non-profiled version of a mod manager aside from an old version of NMM? I never bothered with that nonsense and always wondered if there was a proper alternative

Ever tried Wrye Bash? Simple, no fuss mod manager, been around far longer than NMM and MO.

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And if you don't support it, then people may insult you for not supporting those installation methods.

And you just have to deal with that repercussion. =/

Or....

I continue doing what I do and having popular mods despite the zealotry :P If people using MO can't come to grips with the simplicity of ESP+BSA then they can't be helped.

You may not realize it but the rabid support for MO is not a universal truth. It's actually a pretty small but vocal minority of people who swear by it. Which is why you find a lot of mod authors rolling their eyes when those vocal people keep pushing it and then having no real arguments to back up why everyone should be using it. I'm afraid I didn't find yours persuasive either.

 

Ever tried Wrye Bash? Simple, no fuss mod manager, been around far longer than NMM and MO.

Plus, this. Wrye Bash is still here. Still superior in every possible way.

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So, rebranded MO3 is coming. I hope they will finally fix the bug with crashing VFS when writing files and I'll be able remove MO workarounds from xLODGen Nexus pages.

Other than that I don't care either, agree that Wrye Bash is superior in every possible way. "Clean" data folder? Why do I want it clean when the whole point of modding Bethesda games is to add new stuff inside it. When only WB is used to install files, there are no problems with tracking them and removing or changing order at will, VFS is just useless cumbersome overkill imho.

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Once I found MO, I never went back. I simply found it more enjoyable.

 

But yeah, you can do things your way. Just wanted to let you know that the only /good/ argument is the one a person believes in. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as that. And if you don't want to support it, then don't. But that's how public opinion works. If you want your mods to be popular, you also have to support what is popular. 

 

[And yes I did just make an account to respond to this. Google Now (oddly) told me about this news and then i saw the post and just had to laugh.]

Good for you that you find MO is the tool you're comfortable with.  But for me I find WB to be more enjoying, because I know what I need to do and how to mod a game the right way.

 

I disagree about supporting popular tools such as MO for my first Skyrim mod.  Why?  It's simple because that's how I want to do with my mod and nobody can tell me that, if you don't support MO then your mod is history.

 

However, one thing that really disturbes me is that people seems to think that MO are the main mod manager and WB is just a helper, when in reality it is the opposite WB is the main mod manager and MO is just a helper.

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I think most MO users don't even realize that what they glamor MO for can as easily be achieved with other managers, if you are willing to rework your workflow and accept that there was never a reason to unpack BSAs to begin with.

The main feature MO has going for it is a "better" more boastful advertisement for it's features than it's more matured competition. That is why surprise-appearances of random MO evangelists are usually met with eye rolls by the other people around, much like we saw in the early days of apple phone fandom

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Tannin42 appears to be a very professional programmer indeed. Here's one of his latest comments:

"It's no rebranded MO, it's a fresh start. "Controversial" MO features like the virtual filesystem may exist as options / extensions but they will not be defaults or requirements.

With MO I was happy to develop a tool that would only appeal to a small crowd. It was always intended to be complement the existing solutions like OBMM/NMM or wrye bash, not to replace them.

Now we're writing a modding tool for all Nexus users so obviously the approach will be different. I'm not ignorant of the problems with MO but with MO I had one target audience, now it's a different one.

We try to make the new mod manager attractive to advanced & MO users through extensibility, not by doing the same again and hoping the majority of users will suddenly like it better.

posted @ 9:27, 14 Oct 2016"

Sounds like the right approach to me

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*snip*

Random guy telling the most popular mods author ever he's got to support MO if he wants his mods to be popular. I've seen it all.

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Why do I want it clean when the whole point of modding Bethesda games is to add new stuff inside it.

Yep, the old Data directory. Possibly one of Tannin's reasons in MO to take it out of there was the looming spectre of Max_Path. Hasn't been a real issue as yet, although Valve could have made the default installations a little nearer the root directory at the cost of re-evaluating their directory structures.

Let's hope NMM sticks to Data with view to resolving compatibility issues with other apps.

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I disagree about supporting popular tools such as MO for my first Skyrim mod.  Why?  It's simple because that's how I want to do with my mod and nobody can tell me that, if you don't support MO then your mod is history.

 

I don't know what you're talking about. What do you think you need to do to "support" MO? MO has a ton of compatibility plugins so that nobody actually has to do anything specific to support MO.

 

"Clean" data folder? Why do I want it clean when the whole point of modding Bethesda games is to add new stuff inside it. When only WB is used to install files, there are no problems with tracking them and removing or changing order at will, VFS is just useless cumbersome overkill imho.

The purpose of VFS is to allow you to cleanly uninstall improperly packaged (i.e., mods that don't use BSAs/BA2s) AND conflicting mods, thereby enabling you to switch between all mods quickly.

 

I'm not sure what people don't get about that. Without VFS, if you uninstall a mod with some loose files that had been overwritten by another mod, you lose those loose files and the game probably won't start anymore. Then, instead of test driving new mods and playing the game, you have to spend even more time figuring out what files you're missing or just reinstalling the whole game and all of your mods because that would take too long.

 

That's more of a problem with older games, like Morrowind and Oblivion. You can use MO with those games, by the way.

 

Sounds like the right approach to me

I think folks are forgetting that NMM supports way more games than just Bethesda games, so Tannin has to develop features that support a much, much wider audience.

 

That said, NMM has an atrocious UX, so I won't be using NMM Tannin Edition unless the interface and workflow are massively overhauled.

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I'm not sure what people don't get about that. Without VFS, if you uninstall a mod with some loose files that had been overwritten by another mod, you lose those loose files and the game probably won't start anymore. Then, instead of test driving new mods and playing the game, you have to spend even more time figuring out what files you're missing or just reinstalling the whole game and all of your mods because that would take too long.

People don't get it because it's not the case if you use WB. No VFS needed.

Not sure why people think VFS is the solution to all modding problems. More specifically, a problem that never existed.

I'm aware MO is popular and great for a lot of people, which is perfectly fine by me. Just do not try to sell it as a superior mod manager because it's certainly not, mostly due to adding a further level of complexity on how it handles things under the hood. I think the author never used WB once, otherwise he would have never thought of doing things that way.

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I'm not sure what people don't get about that. Without VFS, if you uninstall a mod with some loose files that had been overwritten by another mod, you lose those loose files and the game probably won't start anymore. Then, instead of test driving new mods and playing the game, you have to spend even more time figuring out what files you're missing or just reinstalling the whole game and all of your mods because that would take too long.

I think you never used WB because it handles that automatically since Morrowind era. This is the main reason why WB users don't understand all the fuss with MO and it's VFS - introducing a new level of complexity on user shoulders to solve the already solved problem.

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Without VFS, if you uninstall a mod with some loose files that had been overwritten by another mod, you lose those loose files and the game probably won't start anymore. Then, instead of test driving new mods and playing the game, you have to spend even more time figuring out what files you're missing or just reinstalling the whole game and all of your mods because that would take too long.

 

People don't get it because it's not the case if you use WB. No VFS needed.

Not sure why people think VFS is the solution to all modding problems. More specifically, a problem that never existed.

I'm aware MO is popular and great for a lot of people, which is perfectly fine by me. Just do not try to sell it as a superior mod manager because it's certainly not, mostly due to adding a further level of complexity on how it handles things under the hood. I think the author never used WB once, otherwise he would have never thought of doing things that way.

 

What dAb said.  Wrye Bash does a brilliant job of managing the installation and uninstallation of mods with loose files and lets you easily identify loose file conflicts among mods and make changes to the installation order on the fly.

 

I love Wrye Bash and its the only mod manager I have ever used.  I do have a question for all you Wrye Bash experts though . . . how do you manage different save game profiles in Wrye Bash when you have a bunch of mods that have loose files, particularly loose scripts that replace vanilla scripts?

 

Managing multiple save game profiles that have different mod installations of loose file mods seems to be the one thing that can be problematic in Wrye Bash.  Wrye Bash will remember which mods are active when you switch profiles, which is great if the resources for all of your mods are neatly packed away in a bsa where they can do no harm unless you have an esp activated, but with loose files, switching profiles in Wrye Bash isn't going to work very well if one of those mods contains loose vanilla replacers (not just a hypothetical questions since I have several mods in my current load order that do just that).

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I think Utumno may be working on the whole save file management for some future version of Wrye Bash, and a way of having whole setup profiles, but currently I dont bother with / have a need for different setups.

 

Skyrim has proven to be a lot more fussy about content than older elder scrolls games, so my routine is fairly sticky :

 

Install all mods I intend to play through with, in the right Install Order

Sort my Load Order

Clean masters and any mods

Build bashed patch

Do the DynDOLOD routine

Play

 

If any of the above is upset or needs re-doing - Start a new game.

My load order hasn't changed much at all in the last year ( possibly two ) apart from updates to long term stayers.

 

For anyone changing game content regularly at a whim or obsessively I would imagine many problems become apparent on a regular basis, and having plugins and loose files tied in with particular save games ( profiles ) would be desireable.

 

 

I think the latter was probably the only reason MO could have looked even remotely attractive to me, but for the amount of changing I do it would not have been worth changing over to the unnecessary VFS, or having to run MO in the background all the time.

 

I would rather just load all files from Data, and not intercept / redirect every single file call the game needed to look elsewhere on my HD.

The whole MO setup just seemed less optimal than the games original system of loading.

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Never tinkered too much with save profiles either because all my characters more or less get always the same load order, heh.

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I think Utumno may be working on the whole save file management for some future version of Wrye Bash, 

That would be ideal.  I am pretty much doing the same thing as you, building a stable load order and just sticking with it, but lately I have been wanting to try out a couple of new mods without tearing everything apart that I have spent the last year building just to try a new mod out to see if I liked it.  

 

Never tinkered too much with save profiles either because all my characters more or less get always the same load order, heh.

Lol!  Me too, but it's your mod, YASH that has me wanting to try out multiple profiles.  After spending the past year building up a very stable Requiem based load order of 116 plugins that runs at 58-60 FPS everywhere and does not crash, I am not about to tear that all apart to try something new without a good profile system that would make it easy to switch back and forth.  But I do want to check out YASH at some point.  Maybe once SKSE gets recompiled for SSE and you get YASH onto the new engine, I will start SSE with YASH.

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